tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2503399848376770420.post8825341514057187868..comments2024-03-08T08:25:01.699-06:00Comments on Heresy in the Heartland: "Children: Fun or Frenzy?"Jerihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14097266657351609701noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2503399848376770420.post-6100397454065507872023-05-08T17:43:33.372-05:002023-05-08T17:43:33.372-05:00My sister and I were both raised under this guidan...My sister and I were both raised under this guidance. When we were both old enough we ran away from our house as fast and as hard as we could. When I was 25 I finally confronted my mother with the fact that she physically abused me and my sister as children. My mother was horrified that I would accuse her of abuse and defended her actions as Biblical and Godly and loving. I told her they were anything but. About 10 years later she came to visit me and confessed that she now saw what she did was physically abusive, she said she had repented and asked my forgiveness. Our relationship changed forever. If you have read this book/pamphlet and you are disciplining your children according to what Pat wrote, you are setting your children up for a lifetime of pain. There is NO grace taught in her book. My sister and I both suffer from childhood trauma and have both been in and out of counseling, because although we both forgave our mother, the scars of the trauma still remain. Luckily and somehow miraculously I never blamed God or thought God was mean and authoritarian. I actually just didn’t know Him the way we were created to know Him…but I do now and that’s what matters. Please throw this book away, stop suggesting it to people, open the Bible and look and see how our Heavenly Father disciplines and chastens those He loves, follow His example.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2503399848376770420.post-13375865848412717832022-11-13T08:49:58.890-06:002022-11-13T08:49:58.890-06:00Hi I was raised this way too. So were many of the ...Hi I was raised this way too. So were many of the children of my parents' friends. I have a lot of anger towards my Mom for getting sucked into this by Al and Pat who we knew personally. I would so appreciate connecting with others who were raised similarly to maybe process the experience and hear how others have (or haven't) done the same, hear whether they view the past as I do. If you'd care to correspond, my email is: 76285bgw@gmail.com.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2503399848376770420.post-79213642141035187782022-10-21T08:28:30.522-05:002022-10-21T08:28:30.522-05:00My parents, but especially mom, were another coupl...My parents, but especially mom, were another couple sucked in by Al and Pat's cult of child rearing. I remember Al and Pat. I have been in their home. They came to our home to give my parents a kind of "workshop" on this child rearing method. Their own family/children we super messed up. The kids hated their mom and only one stayed loyal to her. One daughter died. One son ran away from home. He was the smart one. I truly believe that Pat had mental problems. And this was my parents' child rearing guru! Not only did my Mom and two very close friends follow Pat's child rearing methods, they also followed her - along with their respective children - into Judaism. The children of 2 other very close friends of my mother's were also raised this way and I have started comparing notes with these other "children". Knowing that they feel and see the past similarly to myself helps me feel like I'm not crazy. I wonder how many other children and families were messed up by Al and Pat's methods. I would like to start a support group on FB to try to resolve my feelings today about it but don't know how to track these people down. If anyone would like to get in touch, my email is: 76285bgw@gmail.com or on FB: Avigayil Simpson.Avigayilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12567514778944970507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2503399848376770420.post-7877175875464072202022-04-28T06:41:59.551-05:002022-04-28T06:41:59.551-05:00My mom taught directly from this booklet for years...My mom taught directly from this booklet for years!!! Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2503399848376770420.post-9164938084213020852017-11-03T13:00:16.354-05:002017-11-03T13:00:16.354-05:00My dad was a pastor and strongly ascribed to this ...My dad was a pastor and strongly ascribed to this booklet as well as the Bill Gothard material. I can tell you that we were extremely well behaved children who all ended up with complete disconnect from my dad once we approached our independence as young twenties. My dad to this day still hands this out and still cannot understand the damage he did to his kids. It is by the grace of God that I am a pastor but can say that I raise my girls very differently. The turning point in my relationship with my dad was when he told me that my girls were strong-willed children and that I needed to conform their will to my will so that they would then know how to conform to the will of Father God. I remember the shock on his face when I told him my wife and I prayed for strong-willed children as only strong-willed kids will be able to stand against the flow of culture with the Gospel. I told him that I expected my girls would break my heart somehow someday but it would not break my love and that they would never be afraid to come to me when they mess up (as all kids do at some point to some degree). He could only equate strong will with rebellion and rebellion was a sure path to hell. It was an enlightening moment for him and went a long way to restore our relationship (well actually create one) after 38 years. So sad to see people still espousing this material and this philosophy.Just Thinkin' Aloudhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11835819529932427819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2503399848376770420.post-76591833639049325872017-08-19T14:53:46.277-05:002017-08-19T14:53:46.277-05:00Those studies aren't worth the paper they'...Those studies aren't worth the paper they're printed on...children are individual living beings with individual needs, not statistical averages. bluestatedadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00934751703986166303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2503399848376770420.post-20352911876787939622017-04-10T19:34:28.212-05:002017-04-10T19:34:28.212-05:00I do not believe in breaking a child's will. I...I do not believe in breaking a child's will. I believe in enforcing it, so that when they are adults they are capable of making their own decisions. I have six children, three adult sons, two teenager daughters, and an 11 yr old son. I have never made the older ones watch the younger ones unless they were paid for doing so, and that was only after the younger ones were in elementary. I refused to allow my boys to have the responsibility of taking care of babies. They weren't THEIR babies to take care of. They were mine. I have raised them to be independent, free-thinkers, outspoken, sarcastic, hard workers, and I encourage all of them to have a wicked sense of humor. We rarely take anything seriously. I have deliberately NOT raised them the way I was raised, especially my girls. They are not to be submissive, since I am most definitely not. Two words I left out of my marriage vows were "To Obey". I am equal to my husband, and he listens to my opinions and frequently obeys them, because I have plenty of opinions. I cannot imagine my children with their wills broken. That carefree life extinguished from their eyes. My children will never know what that is like. K. Spicerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06873345307563320878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2503399848376770420.post-42874861976965489922016-08-14T18:25:52.313-05:002016-08-14T18:25:52.313-05:00I was raised on the teaching in this booklet. I ha...I was raised on the teaching in this booklet. I hated the book. My mom recommended it to many. Sara Hugheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07905694609863785812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2503399848376770420.post-17391602687921670552016-08-14T17:07:15.780-05:002016-08-14T17:07:15.780-05:00I was raised with this booklet. My mom recommended...I was raised with this booklet. My mom recommended it to a lot of people. I hated it, but thought it was Gods way, so felt conflicted.Sara Hugheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07905694609863785812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2503399848376770420.post-70509408529955590372016-06-04T16:35:53.295-05:002016-06-04T16:35:53.295-05:00Whyever would you want to remove or punish a child...Whyever would you want to remove or punish a child's self-will? It would be like taking away their sex drive!<br /><br />Many christians believe god commands them to spank their children. However, the evidence is piling up to show that spanking children is likely to do them psychological harm. <br />http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/04/the-strong-evidence-against-spanking/479937/Jerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14097266657351609701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2503399848376770420.post-32770878302563937302016-06-04T16:05:27.786-05:002016-06-04T16:05:27.786-05:00My husband and I read this booklet when our kids w...My husband and I read this booklet when our kids were young, and found it to be extremely helpful. However, we learned over time that we couldn't implement this discipline concept (after one command) without also using sensitivity and grace. E.g., if the child was tired, or unusually distracted by something, or troubled, etc., we learned not to be legalistic about the discipline. A wise parent will discern what's going on when the child doesn't obey, and will minister to the true need. If self-will is at play, then the discipline is necessary, and obviously, spanking is a Scriptural command when training our children. But if we can see that the issue is something else, then grace tempers the tendency toward legalism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2503399848376770420.post-59006024233576896182016-01-11T15:58:49.848-06:002016-01-11T15:58:49.848-06:00I have had to apologize to my children for followi...I have had to apologize to my children for following the teachings in that pamphlet. It seemed good at the time, but after several children, I came to realize it is extreme, and extremely damaging. I still believe in correction, but not the way Children - Fun or Frenzy teaches. Parenting is difficult - you have to follow your heart and do your best.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2503399848376770420.post-71262777010171675652015-11-14T21:30:39.936-06:002015-11-14T21:30:39.936-06:00I was not brought up this way, which I regret. I c...I was not brought up this way, which I regret. I could have been saved from so much heartache, had I been. In turn, I raised my two children with these principles starting at ages 9 and 6. Had we not changed, we would have lost our two boys. Neither of the boys can remember being spanked and they both are married and in successful careers, plus eight grand children.Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02671894306406904242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2503399848376770420.post-89868644541079283822014-12-19T15:02:41.645-06:002014-12-19T15:02:41.645-06:00I'm sorry you experienced that kind of parenti...I'm sorry you experienced that kind of parenting. <br /><br />The original text can be downloaded from:<br />www.gcnwdads.com/articles/UnderLovingCommand.docJerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14097266657351609701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2503399848376770420.post-59102010122300868652014-12-19T14:39:02.522-06:002014-12-19T14:39:02.522-06:00Do you know how I can get one of these pamphlets? ...Do you know how I can get one of these pamphlets? My parents read it and raised me under its teaching. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2503399848376770420.post-47101745143493677392014-04-01T15:59:39.574-05:002014-04-01T15:59:39.574-05:00Actually, I most certainly do throw this baby out ...Actually, I most certainly do throw this baby out with the bathwater. Spanking children is linked to more aggression and a higher risk of mental illness. My children are grateful that I don't hit them anymore. <br /><br />http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jul/02/news/la-heb-spanking-mental-health-problems-20120702<br /><br />http://heresyintheheartland.blogspot.com/2013/10/spanking.html<br /><br />http://heresyintheheartland.blogspot.com/2014/03/library-shelf-1324.html<br /><br />Jerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14097266657351609701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2503399848376770420.post-82751372155189337672014-04-01T13:06:41.202-05:002014-04-01T13:06:41.202-05:00Others of course would strongly disagree with this...Others of course would strongly disagree with this post - and all the while recognize that everything needs to be read with discernment. Many Christian parenting books, rightly, in my opinion, continue to teach parents that consistency and clarity about obeying the first time a child is given a clear command is a major aspect of faithful, Christian parenting. In the excellent book, "Gospel-Powered Parenting: How the Gospel Shapes and Transforms Parenting" by William (Bill) Farley, there's a footnote in chapter 9 that refers to Pat Fabrizio's booklet, Bill writes, <br /><br />"'Under Loving Command' - This booklet had a tremendous impact on Judy and me when our children were young, If read with an attitude of grace, it is highly recommended!" <br /><br />I would give the same recommendations for Richard Fugate's, "What the Bible Says About Child Training;" Bruce Ray's, "Withhold Not Correction" - and the best overall book that advocates this same philosophy of spanking, "Shepherding a Child's Heart" by Tedd Tripp. (Books, by the way, recommended by David Powlison, John MacArthur, Ed Welch, Elisabeth Elliott, R. Kent Hughes, Art Azurdia, etc.)<br /><br />It's easy to isolate this single aspect of faithful, loving parenting and present a distorted view of what the Bible is very clear about - the rod of correction. There is great danger in over-reacting, over-correcting to perceived errors. You can't lump all this together with a-guilt-by-association link to all things Bill Gothard - of course there have been misguided and evil men and women who have justified their actions by appeals to Scripture and Christian books. Pick up these newer and better, more balanced books on parenting - but don't throw the baby, the rod, out with the dirty bath-water, the perceived excesses of some bad examples. Those who out-of-hand (pun intended) reject the Bible's clear teaching about the use of the rod of correction have to that degree rejected the word of God and presumed an authority wiser than our faithful, disciplining God (Heb. 12). Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2503399848376770420.post-46661325663297416502014-02-13T16:04:43.069-06:002014-02-13T16:04:43.069-06:00I never did. I have, however, heard from other adu...I never did. I have, however, heard from other adults who were raised under that method. It does *not* make for healthy parent-child relationships.Jerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14097266657351609701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2503399848376770420.post-50861187143131491502014-02-13T08:34:03.355-06:002014-02-13T08:34:03.355-06:00Did you ever get in contact with the author? I was...Did you ever get in contact with the author? I was just given this pamphlet, and the first think I wanted to know is who in the world wrote it and what qualifies him to try to teach these principles to others?! It is an extreme view of parenting to say the least. Jessi Snapphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08220331334760080997noreply@blogger.com